The Jump – Season 3 – Episode 4
雪莉：没有其他艺术家像帕蒂·史密斯（Patti Smith）。她是原型的创始人，是她这一代人和所有几代人都在她的小径上最真实和受人尊敬的人。我们坐下来解剖了她的第二张专辑《埃塞俄比亚广播》的歌曲。当然，她比交付的要多。当您听到这句话时，我也会像她说话时坐着铆钉和迷惑。我是雪莉·曼森。她是帕蒂·史密斯（Patti Smith）。这就是跳跃。
雪莉：帕蒂·史密斯？
帕蒂：是的。
Shirley: This is Shirley Ann Manson.
Patti: Oh, hello.
Shirley: Hello, there.
Patti: Nice to sort of see you.
Shirley: I wish I was seeing you too, but I can't stand these Zoom cameras.
Patti: Oh, no. Me either.
Shirley: It makes me insane.
帕蒂：想象一下，如果您在Zoom上的74岁。你看起来像110。
雪莉：我认为这不是真的。老实说，我不知道您是否看起来更漂亮。
Patti: Oh, thanks. That's so nice. Now, you know what it is? It's just staying in contact with my 11-year-old self. That's what-
Shirley: I think that might be true, actually. There's a couple of things I want to say to you because, hey, how often do you get to speak to your hero?
Patti: Aw.
雪莉：但是我真的很惊讶你的事情是，每当我来看看你活着的时候，我尽可能地做到了……我见到你，实际上是在音乐学院的布鲁克林，很久以前。您来到舞台上，我真的很震惊您的年龄多么不合时宜。一些您喜欢的表演者，然后您去看他们，他们觉得自己正在收缩。当然，我一直哭过。然后我去洗手间，女士洗手间的所有女人都在哭。是源自狂热者。我简直不敢相信。
帕蒂：真好。好吧，我可以简单地告诉你，我认为其中的一部分是我从头开始。我不是音乐家。除了反馈外，我真的什么都没玩。就我自己而言，我仍然在作为人类发展。我认为，随着我们的发展，我们会变得更强大。直到年纪大了，我才真正成为表演者。当然，您会失去一定数量的年轻外观，但是一个人的成就是品格和自信的力量。我认为自信，只是与您最早的自我，您的年轻自我保持联系，记住自己是谁。我没有舞台角色，所以我没有任何损失。 I'm just the person that's on the street talking to my kids. Then I go on stage and then I'm talking to the people. I'm the same person.
Shirley: We are here on The Jump talking about particular songs in an artist's career. You have picked Pissing in a River, which I was delighted by. First of all, I wanted to ask you, what was going on in your life around the time of writing this song?
帕蒂:嗯,这是一个特别混乱me. I never thought that I would make a record, but we did. We made Horses. I knew so little about the music business or how people operated and I had no clear ambition, that when the record was over I thought, "Okay, I did that. Now I can go back to working in the bookstore. I'll be writing poetry." But then we were offered a tour. We got to see a lot of the world, something that, economically, I could have never done before we were offered the chance to tour. Then I was asked to do another record, which really, I really hesitated, because I felt like I had done a record. I had done what I wanted to do. I wanted to do something new. I wanted to open up territory for others and create new space. I felt, hopefully, I had done that and also pay homage to people that I admired.
这对我来说是新的领域，因为我不确定第二张唱片的目标是什么。就关系而言，我的个人生活有点纠结。我在过渡时期。
（唱歌）
我在问自己很多问题，例如什么，无论我是什么年龄，我都不记得，26或...我想完成什么？我的愿望是什么？我想从恋爱关系中做什么？我与我的人民，乐队和我们为之表演的人的关系是什么？我的责任是什么？我有很多想法。
Shirley: Were you intimidated by the success of Horses?
Patti: Not really, because it wasn't a financial success. Horses still has never gone gold. Our life didn't change that much economically. I was living in the East Village in a six-floor walkup. But I was happy, because we had a little money in our pocket. I had been to England and France and Finland. I had been to all these places. But no, I'm not easily intimidated, actually. I didn't feel intimidated. I wasn't quite sure what my next move should be, that would be positive for my self evolution as well as the people around me.
I agreed to do the record, but I wanted to do something new. I wanted it to have more sonic energy. But also, I was having, from I think the repetition of performing so much and I improvise quite a bit, I was having a bit of a crisis language-wise. I wasn't writing as much poetry. I was having trouble with my lyrics. So I started getting very interested in the electric guitar and the sonic scape of the electric guitar and feedback and creating a language out of feedback. So I had different goals in this record.
（唱歌）
Shirley: Why did you pick Pissing in a River out of Radio Ethiopia for this podcast?
Patti: Well, I decided to pick a song that was done very early, but that I still do with the same, or even more, passion than when I was young.
（唱歌）
It was not a commercial record, but people acted like I had gone AM or something. But it was not well received, the record, to put it lightly. It talks about the death of Rimbaud and Brancusi, the sculptor and poppies, the burning of the poppy fields in Afghanistan. It's not your usual commercial record.
雪莉：当埃塞俄比亚广播电台出来时，您得到了这种敌意，以任何方式粉碎了您或这样做...
帕蒂：不。我真的很惊讶，尤其是当其中一些人是我的朋友时。我以为这很愚蠢。另外，我认为这是局限的，以及下一个唱片发生的事情。当我们有一首歌时，因为夜晚。然后他们也对此施加了适合。我只是告诉他们自己他妈的。我说你谈论朋克摇滚。对我来说，朋克是自由。我们想要的只是我们想要自由，为什么CBGB愿意为人们提供自己的音乐，自己的歌曲，以自己想要的方式来播放自己的音乐，自己想要的方式，而不是自己想要的方式，而不是自己想要的方式指示。 If I could have a hit song, great. If I could do the lowest of the low song, great too. That stuff really never bothered me. It bothered musicians or sometimes the composers of the songs more than it would bother me, because I have a pretty thick skin.
Shirley (10:21): Is it true that one of your record execs wanted you to change the title of Pissing in the River?
Patti: Oh, absolutely.
Shirley: How did that go down?
Patti: Well, they wanted, they said swimming in the river, can you change it to? Actually, it caused a bit of conflict, because my co-writer, of course, was not happy about the fact that I had inadvertently titled the song or written a lyric in the song that was probably going to hurt it commercially. But I didn't write it to be a commercial song. I just wrote it. I don't think like that. There wasn't another word I could find that could convey the feeling of the song.
的想法像缓解onesel尿f. The song was like, it's dumping everything that was on my mind through a song. It hurt us. Again, another reason that it was ridiculous for people to think it was a big commercial sellout. The actual cover had P, dash, dash, dash, I-N-G in a River on the cover. I don't know if the record was beeped, but they would beep it on radio. So it would go beep in a river and beep, beep.
Shirley: So you won the argument, obvious, clearly.
Patti: Well, I wasn't going to lose, because I don't lose. I'm happy to compromise for things that are to the greater good, but the reasons were not the greater good. The reasons to change something that I felt was a hundred percent expressive of what I was trying to express. To change them so I could get more airplay, that is not the greater good.
（唱歌）
I actually wrote the lyrics to this as a poem quite a bit before we had recorded it. I was listening to our guitarist, Ivan Kral, sitting around writing. He was playing some chords. Something about those chords reminded me of my poem. That's often how I would write a song. I would hear Lenny playing something and I'd think, "Oh, it has the same cadence of this poem." And because I'm not a natural lyric writer, I find it very difficult writing lyrics.
This poem, it contained the things that most were swirling around me, the things that were concerning me, what I was supposed to do with my life. But I did choose it because of that. Also, it's a song that I really wanted Jack Douglas for. I had a vision of this song climbing at the end. I knew that he could help us achieve the climb. I just imagined the song, instead of having verse chorus, verse chorus, that it would do something, either a key change or something that would keep it climbing. He understood my abstract language and helped us achieve that. I did the song recently on a live stream and felled it just as much as I felled it as a young girl recording it.
（唱歌）
The interesting thing is, it's not a love song. It's more of a song acknowledging three important men in my life. Not necessarily boyfriends. Sadly, all of them have passed away, as well as Ivan, who wrote the chords for the song. So it has a certain added poignancy.
Shirley: Can you remember recording this?
帕蒂：是的。
雪莉：您还记得它在什么工作室吗？
帕蒂：是的。It was in the Record Plant. I think it was the last vocal that I did on the record. I remember it clearly, because there was nobody there, but Jack Douglas and our engineer, Jay Messina. Jimmy Lovine might've been there, because he was engineering next store. He would come in and out. And my brother Todd, also who has passed away. I was in a highly agitated state, because I had had a argument with a fella, but I was in a very agitated state and my brother knew it.
当我做声乐时，他来到声带，与我站在一起，因为他非常了解我。他知道我可能只是决定不这样做。我处于激动的状态。这是唱片的终结。我们都陷入困境。我兄弟的影响力如此平静。把他带到那里真是太酷了。我将永远拥有那个记忆。我总是珍惜这一点，因为他只是站在那儿。我的兄弟真的很酷的家伙，我的兄弟托德。 So I remember it well. I remember it well.
Shirley: Did anybody speak to you about if you wanted to recite this?
帕蒂：是的。我为你带来了。
Shirley: Would you mind doing that just now?
帕蒂：当然。是的，我不得不说，自70年代以来，我就再也没有背诵过。所以让我们看看。
Shirley: I feel very excited. I'm actually getting goosebumps, actually.
Patti: Okay. Pissing in a river, watching it rise. Tattoo fingers shy away from me. Voices, voices mesmerize. Voices, voices beckoning sea. Come, come, come, come back, come back, come back. Spoke of a wheel, tip of a spoon, mouth of a cave. I'm a slave. I'm free. When are you coming? Hope you come soon. Fingers, fingers encircling thee. Come, come, come. My bowels are empty, excrete in your soul. What more can I give you? Baby, I don't know. What more can I give you to make this thing grow? Don't turn your back now. I'm talking to you.
（唱歌）
雪莉：非常感谢。今天我真的很高兴与您交谈。我迫不及待想看看你下一步去哪里。
Patti: Well, lots of love. And hope our paths will cross soon. (singing)
Shirley: The Jump is an original series from MailChimp, produced in partnership with Little Everywhere. Dann Gallucci and Jane Marie are the Executive Producers. The Jump is mixed by Mike Richter. Original music composed by Hrishikesh Hirway. And a very special thanks goes to our wonderful booker, Mara Davis.
